Sunday, May 27, 2007

Haupt/Bracco On Ryan Day' OpEd


From GDI Rising Star, Frank Bracco

Well I think Ryan Day's article brings up a good point. It could be that many of us that have formed the opinion that the current "System" has a Greek bias is completely wrong. It could be that those 15% of undergrads involved in Greek Life are truly more likely to be willing to take on leadership roles than the other 85% of undergraduates. I, however, believe that is not truly the case.

Now let's assume ALL students have the same capacity and wili to become student leaders here at UF; if this was the case then approximately 15% of the positions in SG should be occupied by Greeks. Well we now this clearly isn't the case and we know that not all students have the same interest to become student leaders. Now lets consider that Greek Life students are two, perhaps even three, times more likely than a non-Greek student: even then we should only see 30%-45% (50% at the most) of the positions controlled by Greeks. Again, we clearly know this is not the case.

Now I would be willing to bet if you were to look at those that have been selected for the positions announced thus far, 80%-90% of them are Greek life students (infact I think I will look into this after my work hours this week). Now I am sure someone will find issue with my math or point out democracy is a spoils system but to state a Greek student has six to seven times the propensity to lead than a non Greek is pretty far out there. So the system has a bias, how small or large is a whole other topic. Even if someone were to say "non-Greeks didn't apply" was the reason for this then we must ask why didn't they apply; there must be a reason besides they simply were not interested? Non-Greek students have been conditioned to believe SG is not important or is a playing ground for Greeks. Again, I am not saying, this is a bad or good thing or someone is responsible for it but that is what has happened in my opinion.


From PANTS' Leader, Bruce Haupt

Below is a string of messages between Ryan Day and I that occurred right after I read the article. It pretty well gives my thoughts on the matter.

Essentially, I agree with Ryan that the Alligator does a lot to turn students away from SG. That is one issue I really wanted to talk more about during the campaign. However, as you can see in my messages, I don’t approve of some of the propaganda that Ryan spewed out, some of it false. He didn’t need to make shit up to make his point. The josh simmons point later in the conversation makes the whole situation even funnier to me.

TALES FROM THE FACEBOOK



Bruce Haupt
1:22pm May 24th
jordan mcbee is greek.


Ryan Day
1:23pm May 24th
Yeah but Chi Phi doesn't count!


Bruce Haupt
1:24pm May 24th
to the Gator Party maybe... :)


Ryan Day
1:25pm May 24th
Yeah, you know what I mean though, he was actively involved in Pants party politics, he is for all intents and purposes "on the other side"


Bruce Haupt
1:27pm May 24th
but not non-greek.

and i completely agree about your point that the alligator does a lot itself to sabotage voter turn-out. i wanted to attack them throughout the campaign. one interesting point about that, however, is that one of the most apathy supporting don't-vote alligator writers last semester was one of your party's own, mr. simmons.


Ryan Day:
1:29pm May 24th

Josh was never actually in the Gator Party. He really kept himself removed and opinions seperate. Just because Ben, Kim, and I were on Gator he was often lumped in with us. He didn't attend campaign meetings, he wasn't out there campaigning, he simply wanted to be a writer who made up his own mind.


Bruce Haupt
1:31pm May 24th

in the last two days he was out at your table in a gator shirt.


Ryan Day
1:32pm May 24th

Not true, he was at our table one day in a Gator shirt and one day in an Impact shirt. But he did endorse Gator party in his article, I'm not saying he wasn't a party supporter, but he wasn't involved in the party. I'm sure you gave your roommates t-shirts etc. Same kind of deal. And he was never at a table for more than 15 minutes chatting with someone he knew, never actively campaigning.

Ryan Day
1:33pm May 24th

Besides didn't Will Foster prove that anyone wearing a Gator Party t-shirt is not necessarily in the gator party :P (That one's from Kim)


Bruce Haupt
1:34pm May 24th

i dont think we won any of those commission battles..


Ryan Day
1:35pm May 24th

The individual ones against him got dropped because the one against the party went through.


Bruce Haupt
1:37pm May 24th

but dropped before he got to prove his silly argument? (I'm not sure, I wasn't there).

I will say, though, and you all agree I'm sure (somewhere in the back of your minds), that josh telling people not to vote, then wearing a gator shirt (supporting, not campaigning), and then most likely voting...

well, a bit hypocritical. :)


Ryan Day
1:39pm May 24th

That's just the way Josh is, and there's pretty much zero way any of us could ever hope to change that.


Bruce Haupt
1:39pm May 24th

I win! :)

Bruce Haupt
1:39pm May 24th

well, in my mind, and only a facebook messaging war...

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

I really fail to see what the facebook messages have to do with anything.

"Non-Greek students have been conditioned to believe SG is not important or is a playing ground for Greeks."

This is the problem... and its a problem with Media outlets, not the people in leadership positions. The Alligator, this blog, etc. should be encouraging people to apply. Instead you discourage them which is a crime in of itself. If they get rejected then you have a legitimite claim... but they aren't rejected they just never apply... and that's your fault, squarely. THe fact of the matter is... you can't get a position if you don't apply.

And here's a slight fact that people ignore - GREEKS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE INVOLED (in any facet of student life) THAN NON-GREEKS. That's a simple fact, people who are looking to lead tend to go greek. People who are looking to fade into the background - typically aren't. Why can greeks motivate people to vote? Because the people voting realize its in their best interest. You really can't blame us because the "independents" can't be bothered to vote. Again.... your fault not ours. If you can't motivate your own backyard to vote, why should we consider you at all... its clear you lack the leadership skills to motivate even the most pedestrian of voters.

Bottom line - as long as you keep not applying, you'll keep not getting the positions (suprise I know... but logic seems to escape this blog). Apply... you'll be suprised at what happens.

francisco said...

It is a rarity that I am up this late on the computer but I will go ahead and respond. I think I gave credit where credit is due: Greeks are more two to three times more likely (in my estimations) to be willing to take on leadership roles but that doesn't solely account for the percentages we see in SG (my opinion...but what the hell do I know right :lol:).

Also, for the record, I have never discouraged anyone from getting involved, whether it be through Gator Party, through Pants, or through some independent route. I have never pushed being "indie" on someone nor have I ever told someone not to go Greek. I have always encouraged people to look at the big picture, talk to people, and form their own opinion. I believe the letters I have had in the Alligator and those that have actually talked to me in person can attest to that :).

And, Mr. Anonymous, although I believe you are speaking in general terms but I do know there are indies applying for positions. Take my buddy Rilwan, who is now an AD; Sam has also been quite active within ACCENT. I have put in for six or seven positions over the past year and I have one or two more applications to turn in during the next two weeks.

On a side note, I have found something quite interesting in my research into Greek assoc. of SG officials. Many of the directors this time around of class of 2010...I expected most of the ADs to be 2010ers but not many of the directors...quite interesting.

bruce said...

Okay, as I said to Christian in my email.

I think my point has gotten across. I think Moseley is doing great so far, however, the message Moseley is sending through this message is not positive. Check the facts. Ryan Day is not true to form as he should be.

Bruce

Anonymous said...

Fank,

You employ several fallacies of logic in your response to Ryan Day's argument... I really thought I was watching "An Inconvenient Truth."

And while you personally been involed with the indies for all of one semester now and would never discourage someone or anthing like it is... there are many people who have been around indie politics longer than you have, many of whom you've never met... you can't presume to speak for all of their actions (although apparently you seem to have great propensity for judging the ones you've never met.... even if they've been around only slightly longer than you).

You're suprised there are class of 2010 kids as directors? really? Think about it, if they logically want any chance at VP they would pretty much have to be.

Freshman - Member or AD
Sophomore - Director
Junior - Chairperson
Senior - VP

unless you want to go the super-senior route, which for VP... well isn't all that attractive. Historically speaking some of the best Directors have been sophomores (perhaps it was because they were better qualified? but I won't get into that argument).

What position is it you imagine Sam Miorelli won't get this year, I'm just wondering... as I don't think Accent positions have been handed out yet. So again... you're dealing in speculation.

There are two sides to all these stories... just because you happen to fall on the indie side don't mean the people telling you these urban legends aren't in fact the ones lying. Its just easier for you to believe what they have to say and think I'm delusional, anything that helps you justify that maybe you aren't qualified for the positions you're applying for and its all some big conspiracy. (Because I'll tell you what's messed up... a 2010 getting a directorship)

Anonymous said...

"Ryan Day is not true to form as he should be."

Yes... way to make your point in indeffinant terms that nobody can understand but are expected to draw their own conclusion from. Way to be honest.

You're on a scumbag blog... at least post what you actually want to say if you want to say something.

Christian Duque said...

GREEKS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE INVOLED (in any facet of student life) THAN NON-GREEKS

THIS is one of the biggest fallacies in Student Government at UF. This is one of the main reasons that even GDI's that have long graduated (e.g. Grapski, Argento, Capezza, myself, etc) will forever have an interest in SG, even if it's limited only to dispelling this piece of propaganda.

GREEKS (and their hired labor) know well in advance that in a FBK-backed/Greek administration, it 's like a salad bar.

BELIEVE THIS!

BELIEVE IN THE SALAD BAR!

The "OPEN" posts are the posts that the GREEKS & their hired labor DIDN'T WANT, SG and its many offices is nothing more than a salsd bar for the powerful.

So few are the Noble, Courageous Greeks that say "this is wrong" and join in with the Indies, to form the GDI Community and a more socially responsible Greek community.

francisco said...

Anon 3:28PM

Thanks for the input, it is eye opening but I guess I have a few things to account for.

1. It was never my intention to speak on behalf of anyone; by citing names I was simply providing examples.

2. I don't claim to be an "indie", that is why I use the label with quotations. I am my own person who makes my own decisions; I guess if that automatically qualifies me as an indie then I am okay with that but whatever...

3. I never said I didn't think Sam would not get a position, perhaps you misread what I typed? I believe Sam should have applied for the Chair position for ACCENT :).

4. I have never, ever stated that I am more qualified for a position than someone else who has received it. In fact I said before on this blog that I knew there was "no chance in hell I would get External Affairs. Why should I, I don't have the qualifications". I believe I have said something to the same affect for CTV....but what is the harm in trying right.

5. I have never claimed for there to be some big conspiracy. Again, I have said before, I have plenty of respect for those that get involved and you really have to have at least some respect for a Party that has been able to do what the Greeks have been able to do over and over again...WIN!

6. Again, I never said it was messed up that a 2010er received a position. I actually be that is a GOOD THING...younger people getting involved earlier to become more experienced for the positions they will have later in life.

Thanks again for the input...I sure hope the points you brought up aren't what many are thinking I actually believe because that would present a problem. I would be happy to address any more misconceptions you may have about me or something I have said, just let me know. Perhaps you confused me with Christian or something :lol:.

Enjoy your Day!

Anonymous said...

All you need to do is look at the numbers of people who show up to slate.

Greeks are interested in slating, independents are not. There are some independents who care, there are some who probably care more than any greek.

Just look at the number of people who qualify.

Christian Duque said...

Again, this arguing back and forth is great -- this is true blogging. However, I think that FBK-Greeks & those that work for them should at the very least concede that those that worked for rival Parties ,or, those that have long criticized the System, have little chance of being selected.

IF this most basic concession is made, then the disproportionate numbers at slating become clearer to understand.

Virgil said...

I'd gotten out of the habit of reading these damn things, but a little birdie told me my name was being unceremoniously flung around, so I figured I'd stop by to see what all the fuss was about.

Just to dispel some of the myth, I had always made it my intention to express my opinion through my column and my column only, including by not wearing a Gator t-shirt. I actually got in a few shouting matches over this, but stood my ground. Hence wearing an Impact shirt on the Tuesday of voting. I did hang around the Gator table and the Pants table, simply because I had friends in both parties.

That Tuesday night, though, for various and sundry reasons, I was fired from my columnist position. I actually still have a copy of that week's column lying around unpublished - something about the possession/consumption of alcohol bill the House was working on. So, because I did actually support Ryan Moseley and the Gator Party, I wore a Gator Party t-shirt the next day. I still didn't campaign or talk to any students about it, though, mostly because I never liked doing that sort of thing anyway.

Cheers.

Christian Duque said...

"I'd gotten out of the habit of reading these damn things..."

Of course you have:)

Anonymous said...

I love that when Christian has nothing of import to say about someone's ideas or justifications, he makes a comment that draws attention to how everyone obviously reads blog because his opinions are just that important.

Anonymous said...

I will not concede that an indie is less likely to get the position if they have equal qualifiactions.

An indie and a frat guy who have the same qualifications aren't actually qualified the same. Despite what you may think being involved in a fraternity can also be considered a positive on a resume. Leadership, ability to work with others, involvement in philantrophies etc.

Greek students have more chances to get involved, therefore have more chances to make a good looking resume. That's just a fact of life and not really a consequence of the SG system.

That being said, an indie who takes the time and finds things to be involved in will be considered with every bit the weight that most fraternity guys will be (for most positions).

To say that indies are incapable of getting into high level positions is absolutely ludicrous... several greeks were bumped from the treasuer spot in Gator's slate for E.J. this doesn't fit with your theories of favoritism at all. Gator was going to win this election no matter who they put there... simple statement of fact... but they still chose to put E.J. there instead of any number of greek candidates.

Anonymous said...

Yeah its like they thought he'd do the best job or something... weird.

Anonymous said...

Funny that when the Greeks put an indie on the ticket because they think he'll do the best job, it's diversity and an attempt at inclusion, but if the indies support Moseley because they think he'll do the best job, they're turncoats.

Fancy that.

Anonymous said...

I think Christian is covering SG again because the Observer was getting more attention than him.

Christian Duque said...

Greek students have more chances to get involved, therefore have more chances to make a good looking resume. That's just a fact of life and not really a consequence of the SG system.

The premise to your argument is nonsensical. Of course the level of involvement is a consequence of the hold on SG. Otherwise what are you saying? That by some deed of manifest destiny, those marked by the Greek Gods at conception will somehow live to be far better public servants?

There is nothing anatomically, mentally, or emotionally different between a Greek and a GDI. Good Lord. This poster seems to think that members of Greek organizations are somehow members of the master race.

I think someone's pulling my leg. There's no way someone could be such an ass. LOL

Christian Duque said...

Funny that when the Greeks put an indie on the ticket because they think he'll do the best job, it's diversity and an attempt at inclusion, but if the indies support Moseley because they think he'll do the best job, they're turncoats.

Fancy that.


The assumption that [John] Boyles was the best for the job is where the problem lies. If in fact he had been the best (meaning there was one or more others for consideration -- which there weren't, but had there been and THEN Boyles was picked) then I would look like a major hypocrite, which has been something that the Turncoats have been unable to prove.

If only Boyles really was the "best candidate," if only I didn't know any better. John Boyles and Ryan Day are one in the same, they have been used by the Machine to satisfy the Machine's need for a public image makeover, nothing more.

Boyles has been widely recognized as a Greek puppet. You take Brian Aungst, Chris Carmody, even E.J. Walicki and here you have examples of Independents that supported Greeks but NOT at the point of selling out or working for shady characters.

You take guys like Aungst, Carmody, & Walicki and you see people that the Greeks had to beg and had to work at winning over. The fact they crossed over is their business, but they did so on their own terms and b/c they may have seen greater opportunities to help the student body.

Boyles & Day threw themselves at the System's feet, but in Boyles case all the more repugnant...he used the battle cry of the Yellow & Blue to make his way to the Master's feet, only to drop to his knees much like a certain fellow in red. But the rest, as they say... is too hot for tv.

Anonymous said...

Christian if you can't see that Greek Students have more oppurtunity to get involved outside of SG then you are even dumber than we all already imagined.

Dance Marathon, Philanthropies, Leadership positions within houses, IFC... these are things that are pretty tough to break into from outside the fraternity system and are no fault of SG.

The fact is Greeks just have a greater number of organizations they can be involved in.

But your right... the premise of my argument is nonsensical.

Think before you write.

Anonymous said...

I fail to see how Boyles and Day can even be considered the same.

Boyles "sold out" to become SBP. Day "sold out" to get someone else elected SBP.

I think there's a stark difference in selling out for the best interest of students and the best interest of yourself, but that's just me.

Anonymous said...

How did Ryan and John not cross-over on their own terms?

John was run for SBP... sounds like those were his terms. I don't what Ryan's terms would be, but how can you be sure they weren't met?

How do you know they weren't courted either? Were you in the meetings with them? (No... you weren't.)

How do you know they begged E.J.? You don't, you weren't there for that either. The fact of the matter is you're basic your arguments on broad sweeping generalizations that are only true in your own mind.

Anonymous said...

I don't know where Boyles came into this... I was talking about E.J.

Greek students have more chances to get involved, therefore have more chances to make a good looking resume. That's just a fact of life and not really a consequence of the SG system.

The premise to your argument is nonsensical. Of course the level of involvement is a consequence of the hold on SG. Otherwise what are you saying? That by some deed of manifest destiny, those marked by the Greek Gods at conception will somehow live to be far better public servants?

No. Not even close. What they're saying (I assume) is that in a Greek house, there are philanthropy requirements. There are leadership positions within the house. Being in a Fraternity or Sorority proves that you're not a complete social imbecile and that you can be around people without driving them completely nuts.

The last one, you can't really put on your resume. But the philanthropies and the house leadership positions give Greeks something to put on their resume. These are positions that just aren't available to indies, and that means that Greeks have the normal realm of resume positions to apply for along with these in-house positions that aren't available to the public.

But everyone's already beaten me to that comment.

Guess we're all nonsensical.

Anonymous said...

The only thing Boyles and Day have is common is a chronic lack of skin pigment.

Anonymous said...

I bet this is one of those times where Christian doesn't come back and admit he's wrong, he'll just keep looking for the next think to post and bury this thread.

Unless he doesn't now that I've called him out on it. He is now forced to utilized option B: Deny, Deny, Deny. He may be wrong, but he'll never admit it!

bruce said...

Okay, I'm glad someone called out my earlier response... I don't even know what I was trying to say (nor do I remember writing it). Today's lesson kids: don't drink and blog.

Anyway, before I found out I responded last night, I wanted to say that my comments in the original post sound harsher to me than I meant them. I was in a rather jokey mood at the time and so I would like to apologize to Ryan Day (and Moseley for whatever I was trying to say last night).

What I was trying to say is that I agree with Ryan Day about the negative effects of the Alligator, but I certainly don't condone making up facts to get one's point across. Hell, his point would have been stronger if he classified McBee as one of the Pants Party's leaders... not a "non-Greek" student.

Ba

bruce said...

And I don't think looking at slating number means much of anything for either party. I talked with far too many people slating with Gator who told me their Fraternity or Sorority told them to come in and interview and that they didn't care to be involved.

I also realize that we independent parties do the same telling our friends to go slate just for the hell of it.

And about motivating people to go vote/volunteer. For some of your people, I guess it depends on how you define "motivate." :)

Anyway, no worries, you all had the election months before it happened. Trust me, I know that (though I got some hopeful feelings at points). Mind you, I am just very happy for the whole experience and getting a few moments to speak my mind.

Christian Duque said...

That's a very sweet post Bruce.
But seriously, you were right to call Ryan Day out, as well as the fired columnist, and I was right to call out John Boyles. John's a nice guy, hands down, but he's a Turncoat independent no different than Day, Jardon, Guerra, Belanger, etc.

I won't "bury this thread," but TR is a pretty active blog, don't assume if I post something new that the previous posts are no longer important. Comment on entries from August 2005 if you'd like, just let me know and I'll try to read them.

I do think before I write and Dance Marathon is another fine example of how your premise is absurd. It's not that Greeks get involved b/c they're called to public service and GDI's are not...if you know anything about DM (I being a former dancer & Operations Captain -- I can't expect you to have that level of involvement) it's that there is a group/sponsorship quota to meet. You can't just go on your own, you usually need $250 minimum to go dance. Kids living on Ramen noodles so they can go out once or twice a week with their friends don't have that kind of change -- though they are willing to stand for 34hrs, fundraise, and help the kids.

How about this noob....you think before you write ;)

Anonymous said...

So tell me Christian, how do I get on IFC or become a fraternity president as a non-frat member?

Anonymous said...

christian, you are way too into shooting down ninteen year olds for a twenty-six(ish) man.

Christian Duque said...

The age card seems to be all you have and it just goes to show everyone that even in anonymity you are no match for me :)

francisco said...

Anon. 11:09, I think that is a fair point but just because those positions are available to Greek Life members doesn't means they want to be more involved. That would be like arguing how to get involved in a material engineering club when you are a fine arts major.

I think what I am trying to relate will not come across as I mean it to but perhaps you understand what I mean?

francisco said...

Well another thing you have to look at is most clubs are required to allow anyone to join, whereas Greek life clubs can be selective and charge large membership fees. So, in some ways, you are paying for pre-created leadership positions (kind of a warped view and not one I subcribe to, I believe you are paying for the networking opportunities).

Anonymous said...

Christian, do you inflate your page counts? From SGO:

"UF SG Observer said...
Well we are not Josh, but here you go:

http://bp3.blogger.com/_RJhFyE78JZ8/Rle9JylTmrI/AAAAAAAAAAk/-T_Vy80bVsQ/s1600-h/page+impression+count.bmp

And note it doesn't count the comments pop-up view page like crazy Duque's page impression counter does."

Inquiring minds want to know.

Christian Duque said...

I don't "inflate" views. I will tell you that the 47,000 hits cannot all be clean hits. Clean hits, as in one per IP and so on, I'm sure would drastically lower my count, though by how much I am not sure.

I know that it's not uncommon for one IP to get the blog ten times in a day (e.g. take those that comment for instance, commenting and then wanting to see the responses to their comments). I myself might visit the blog 1-7x in a day I've posted an entry to see what's been said. I see a hit as a hit, but what I truly value are the comments and emails, as well as those I've been able to interview.

Have I sat here hitting reload 47,000 times? I think the 200+ post entries, the interview guests, and the caliber of people working behind ths ecenes proves otherwise. I am very proud of The Radikal and it's time on the scene. I know I am not running UF-GDI or NAGAS, I am well aware that my audience is markedly smaller, but very loyal.

I am a huge supporter of the SGO and again must reiterate how much I enjoy the constant attempts both in the comments box as well as in emails to make the blogs go to war. That will never happen, they are a great site and I couldn't be happier with their product.